By Tom O’Connor
Medill Reports
Campaigner, journalist and peace activist Emma DeSouza spoke with Medill Reports in Chicago while touring the U.S. to deliver a series of talks on the importance of civic society and peacebuilding.
In this wide-ranging conversation, DeSouza reflects on running for office, balancing journalism with activism and the challenges women face in politics. DeSouza also speaks frankly about online harassment, global conflict and cultural shifts on U.S. college campuses.
Reporter Tom O’Connor spoke with Emma DeSouza.
O’CONNOR: Hello and welcome to Medill Reports. I’m Tom O’Connor. Today, I’m speaking with journalist, campaigner and peace activist Emma DeSouza. Emma first came to public attention through a landmark human rights case she brought alongside her husband, Jake. Together, they successfully challenged UK law on citizenship rights under the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland. Since then, Emma has become a journalist, run for public office and advocated on issues from peacebuilding to voting rights. I began by asking Emma why she decided to run in the 2022 Northern Ireland Assembly election in a historically divisive constituency called Fermanagh and South Tyrone.
DESOUZA: I ran in a constituency that has never elected an independent. I ran a constituency that’s heavily green and orange (“green” refers to nationalists who support the principle of reunification of the island of Ireland, while “orange” refers to British unionists who support Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK), in a constituency where no woman had ever run as an independent candidate. So my chances to get elected, I have to say, were pretty slim. But I wanted to try and use my platform to highlight why independents are needed in our political system. So, a big part of it was really about trying to get that message out, and I had a great time on the way.
O’CONNOR: You indicate there that you sort of knew starting out that the chances were quite low. Did you have that expectation, though, during the campaign, that it might turn around?
DESOUZA: No way, I did not think I was going to get elected.
O’CONNOR: So why do it?
DESOUZA: I’m a campaigner at heart, Tom. You know, I’m a campaigner. It’s about a good message, and it’s about trying to spread something that’s beneficial, right? So that’s kind of the whole purpose of a lot of the work that I do. I don’t expect to get much for it, but I feel like I get something more valuable out of it, because there’s something important that I’m trying to get out there into the world.
O’CONNOR: And I suppose one of the main reasons I’d be asking why you do it, not necessarily in terms of principles, it’s very admirable. But the main thing would be that there’s such negativity and tension around campaigns, particularly for assembly elections. How did you manage that?
DESOUZA: I think I was kind of already a bit hardened before I ran for election, because I had already experienced so much social media abuse with the campaign. I mean, I had developed my own coping mechanisms and my own ways for processing any kind of abuse that I received. And the thing about this kind of abuse, which, of course, women running for election received higher levels of abuse, it’s online. It’s written. There are some examples of when it spilled out into the real world. And there were, I think, one or two incidents during that particular election cycle where there had been an instance of physical abuse to female candidates, but largely it’s online.
O’CONNOR: But you’re able to disconnect from that?
DESOUZA: Yeah, I do, but, you know, I had a bit of a moment with it, because I used to engage a lot on social media with people who really were just out to get me. These were people that they didn’t care about the campaign, didn’t care about the court case. They wanted to just tear me down. And then I had this kind of moment where I realized I was engaging a lot with these people who were not there to genuinely engage. They weren’t there for good-faith arguments. They were there to undermine the work I was doing. And then there were these other people who were saying positive things, or who were genuine, or who wanted to have a genuine debate. And I wasn’t giving them attention, I wasn’t responding to them. I kind of just realized, what am I doing? Wasting all of my time responding to these people who don’t care. These people, who their intention is so nefarious, and I’m letting all of this positive energy and all of this genuine community slip away. So I just stopped engaging with them, and I started prioritizing the other kind of engagement. And I like to always tell the young people that I work with now who are building up their profiles that the people that make these kinds of comments, I genuinely believe they must be someone who’s deeply unhappy themselves to be able to say these things about other people. And I think it’s a shame that we are in a society where so many people are so deeply, deeply unhappy. It’s a symptom of a wider issue within society. And whenever they’re saying these kinds of comments, it’s actually rarely about you — it’s about them. So you have to just find a way to separate out that kind of abuse that you’re receiving and just think about all the positive things that you have in your life, and the fact that it is a different place. It’s a virtual space, it’s online. It’s not actually a part of your life. And you actually control how much you let affect you.
O’CONNOR: You mentioned there about the people — you didn’t use the term, but I might use maybe “keyboard warriors” — and the unhappiness in themselves is kind of a symptom of a wider issue in society. What’s that issue?
DESOUZA: Well, there’s lots of undercurrents. I mean, we can see in Ireland, there is an issue now with this idea that there’s growing sentiment of anti-immigrant sentiment. And that’s actually really rooted in other issues. It’s rooted in economic inequality,. And far right, nefarious actors will come in and latch themselves onto communities that are experiencing socioeconomic deprivation, and then they’ll say, “This person over here, this community over here, is the Boogeyman. All your problems are because of this community.” And they kind of weaponize that inequality. And then that’s how these kinds of groups manage to kind of get a foothold within societies. But if we look at our society, there (are) lots of people suffering from socioeconomic deprivation. I mean, in the context of Northern Ireland, some of the most deprived areas during the conflict are just as deprived today. We still have paramilitaries operating in communities. We have 1 in 4 children living in childhood poverty. There are significant issues. Then there’s the mental health and the trauma from the conflict that remains unresolved. There’s just loads of other symptoms. And then I think also the advent of technology has probably been deeply, in one way, it is beneficial, because it connects us all in a much better way. And I ran a great social media campaign, a big part of my profile-building was having that campaign. But it also has made society much more insular in a way too. Because we are online all the time, but we’re not in person all the time. And we’re beginning to lose the social connection that we would have had, perhaps whenever me and you were teenagers, and we were growing up. So I just think there’s been a shift, and I think that kind of online world has had a negative impact on our social world and has made people more isolated.
O’CONNOR: And circling back to it as well, do you think you would run again for some sort of public office?
DESOUZA: No, I don’t know. I think there’s very little potential for me to run in another campaign or election in Northern Ireland. I did give consideration to the Seanad, which is the Irish Senate, but this wasn’t the right time, and oftentimes I’ve had this thought — do I want to go into politics? Do I want to stay where I am? And I think the most effective way to achieve change is outside the political system. Because I’ve already done that, and I know lots of other examples. I’m over here speaking at the moment about the power of civil society and how civil society affects change. We give all the politicians the credit, but I really think it’s people that change how things work in society as we push the politicians into changing their position. And I think I’m much more of a driver of change outside of the political system, and I’m continuing to balance my work between civil society, journalism and other aspects of the work that I’m doing, managing to balance them all at the minute. So I’m not really willing to make a choice.
O’CONNOR: You previously mentioned in an interview about running for the presidency in Ireland in 2032. Would you still?
DESOUZA: Where did I say that?
O’CONNOR: You see, I thought you might ask. It was Finnterviews, the Irish Times podcast.
DESOUZA: Oh my God. I must have said it in jest.
O’CONNOR: In jest, there was an element of jest. But I suppose there’s a presidential election in Ireland this year. Would you have any interest in it this year? Or in 2032, or beyond?
DESOUZA: As I said, I’m a campaigner at heart. And there is a great campaign to be run at the minute for the presidential election on the basis that the current Irish government and the dominant two parties, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, have failed to bring forward a referendum to allow Irish citizens living outside the 26 counties the right to vote for the president. So, whilst in America, any American citizen that leaves the U.S. can still vote in American presidential elections, I, as an Irish person living five miles from the border on the island of Ireland can’t vote for my president. I think that’s a real failure of politics that they didn’t hold that referendum, and the fact that Ireland is still an outlier when it comes to voting rights is deeply frustrating. I’ve been campaigning on this issue for years. And as a campaigner, I can’t help but see how attractive and good a campaign could be to have a northerner run in the presidential election this year and run on the point that I can run for election. I can run for the office of president, but I can’t vote for the office of president. I just think that’s a good way of highlighting how completely wrong that is. So, on the one hand, as a campaigner, I could be convinced to try and run that, but I just don’t think the field would be open for an independent. I think I would be the youngest person ever to run. I don’t know if they’d be ready for someone so young, and there could be a lot working against me if I did try to go forward.
O’CONNOR: We’re going to take a break here on Medill Reports, but we’ll be right back in a couple of seconds with Emma DeSouza.
O’CONNOR: Welcome back. You’re listening to Emma DeSouza with me, Tom O’Connor. I suppose one thing that really interests me about your work is, do you see journalism as a form of activism, or do you see that they have to be balanced, the journalism and the campaigning, and kind of kept separate?
DESOUZA: I’m a human-interest journalist, first and foremost. I like to try and use my profile where I can, to be able to platform other voices. And I find the pieces that I enjoy the most writing are the ones where I’m actually giving voice to someone else, to a community that isn’t being heard or an issue that isn’t being heard. And I suppose I am striking a balance because I’m writing about politics, but I’m also interacting with these politicians, sometimes in an almost lobbying basis. I haven’t found yet that it has caused me too much issue. I think that a lot of the political representatives that I engage with and political leaders that I engage with, they recognize that I’m Emma DeSouza — Good Friday agreement campaigner, who’s here to talk about X. And then, on another occasion, I’m writing a very critical article about you because that’s my job,. And I haven’t had any instances where they’ve said to me, “How could you have written that about me?” I don’t write any favorable pieces with politicians. I think most of them tend to be quite critical. But I haven’t had too many challenges with it. And I suppose a lot of my work is commentary. A lot of my work is actually opinion-based. I think it might be a little bit more challenging for me if I was going to be like a news desk journalist, and I was just having to do straight reporting. Then I probably would have some more challenges with the kind of other work that I’m doing.
O’CONNOR: Do you see yourself doing it for the foreseeable future?
DESOUZA: Yeah, I love it. I love it. I’m working on a book at the moment, so it’s a big part of my life. I wrote an article on the way over on the plane about Kneecap (Kneecap is a Northern Irish hip-hop trio that has recently faced criticism for expressing support for Palestinian rights), who have been getting a lot of headlines recently. I had a piece out then last week also on academic freedom in the U.S. because I’ve been experiencing a lot of university campuses recently, and it was inspiring me to write something about it. So, I’m still very active with my journalism, and it will be very difficult for me to walk away from it.
O’CONNOR: What’s your assessment of that situation you mentioned about the university campuses, and I suppose, linked to Kneecap as well?
DESOUZA: Well, I think what I’m most concerned that I’ve seen is the self-censorship. There’s a lot of self-censorship happening, a lot of people are beginning to question before they post something on social media, they’re deleting social media posts, they’re deleting text messages, deleting content off their phones. And that’s what any authoritarian regime wants. That’s their ultimate goal: self-censorship. And I think it’s concerning that four months into this current administration, you can already see people beginning to self-censor. I think that’s a big issue. I think students are nervous. International students are very concerned. Some are being deported. Their visas are being denied. Academics are very worried about the future of their programs. I do a lot of peace studies lectures, and the peace programs are all getting cut, and their funding is getting cut. In the world we’re living in now, we’re in the most dangerous period since the Second World War. Conflict is becoming a serious issue. It’s spreading. The world is becoming more unsafe, and yet peace programs are being defunded.
O’CONNOR: There’s certainly one thing that resonates a lot in terms of people I’ve spoken to with similar backgrounds is that poem, “First they came for the socialists, and I didn’t speak out. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak out.” And it goes on and on until the very end, “Then they came for me, and there was nobody to speak out for me.”
DESOUZA: That really resonates, and you can apply that beyond just what’s happening here in the U.S. You can apply that much broader. I’m watching every day what’s happening in Gaza, and for anyone that’s working in the area of international human rights and peace building, it is just so shocking the lack of intervention, the lack of intervention from the international community, into what’s happening. And we know that in a decade, two decades, we’re going to look back on this period like we did with Rwanda, and we’re going to criticize and say, “How could governments not intervene? How could there not have been more done?” But it’ll be too late. These people will all be dead. So, it’s very frustrating to be seeing it in real time, and to know that history is not going to look kindly in this period.
O’CONNOR: And there’s so much suffering on this planet, at this very moment when we’re speaking. Why do you think, as humans, we kind of disassociate from it?
DESOUZA: Is it that humans are inherently selfish? I don’t know. I mean, I’m still an optimist, right? I’m still an optimist, and ultimately, I think that there’s always a way to build communities back up. And I think that politics and communities are two very different things. I think political systems can be very divided, but that doesn’t mean communities are divided. We see that in the context of Northern Ireland. I mean, there are issues like legacy, etc., but by and large, you have a society that is much more reconciled than the political system, which is still very divided by unionists and nationalists. We see that young people are growing up and they’re saying, “I don’t identify as either unionist or nationalist.” You go into East Belfast, and you’re going to see the best breweries in Northern Ireland, maybe even the island of Ireland. There’s actually a pizza place there now that is so good. It only has to open for two hours a day, three days a week, and there’s a queue right down the street. It has an East Belfast Irish language school. It has an East Belfast GAA (Gaelic Athletic Association) club there. So it’s a really good example of how much society has changed, how much people have changed and how much communities are trying to actually just build a better life for themselves. The difference is that the political system is divided. So, I guess I always have hope that even if our political systems do become more polarized, that doesn’t necessarily mean that that trickles down to communities and that on-the-ground community work really can be a lifeline in that environment, and we don’t have to allow that to divide us.
O’CONNOR: In the U.S., one thing that I get asked a lot is about “Derry Girls,” the series. And I know you grew up close to Derry, and I’d just be interested your thoughts. What do you make of the series?
DESOUZA: I think it was a great show. I thought it was very innovative in the sense that it was telling a story from the perspective of young people, from a perspective of comedy, which we love to use as a way to try and cope. Also, it was being told from the perspective of young girls too. I thought that Lisa McGee was really innovative about how she did it. I thought it opened up Northern Ireland and her peace process to a whole new audience. I think it did more for teaching people about the Troubles and the conflict than the education system does half the time. And the last episode around the Good Friday Agreement, I mean, how can you not find that so deeply emotional? That episode was such a fantastic piece of television that really captured a moment in time so well in terms of how big a decision that was for people, and how significant it was to be able to get that yes result. A lot of people thought that the peace process wasn’t going to be possible. There was a lot of concern over the vote and whether it would not get passed in Northern Ireland. And then there were those in the background, primarily from the DUP (Democratic Unionist Party), who opposed the Good Friday Agreement, who were saying they would never accept it if it wasn’t by basically a majority vote of 70%. And people were really nervous about this because it wasn’t that then it was going to give them some kind of feel to push back on it. And there it comes in — 72%. What can they say? I thought it was great. It’s a great show.
O’CONNOR: On that optimistic note. Emma DeSouza, journalist, campaigner and peace activist, thank you very much for speaking with me.
DESOUZA: Thank you very much.
Tom O’Connor is a graduate student at Medill in the social justice and solutions journalism specialization. Find him on X @tomreports_ or Instagram @tomreports_.